Curse

DarkNecrid · Jul 09, 2008, 10:38 AM // 10:38

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Yet I don't see how it's not an MMO, apart from people using another definition of the term which has not been made explicit so far (I mean since I started reading GWG). See other complementary infos in the wiki article:

...

If you're going to quote a definition off of Wikipedia, and then only take half the definition it gives, and then when I post the full definition you go "using another definition of the term which has not been made explicit so far", then you basically kill your entire argument because you just nulled what you used as a definition in the first place. By neccessity an MMO needs a persistent world and requires use of the Internet. Guild Wars has 1 of those 2 things, it is not an MMO. It is an online RPG.

The definition you gave me says you are wrong, you just failed to post the whole definition.

MMOs and ORPGs have a lot of similarities. The difference is one has a persistent world, the other doesn't.

WoW is an MMO. (persistent world)
Diablo 2 is an ORPG. (room based world that disappears when all players quit)
AoC is an MMO (persistent world)
Guild Wars is an ORPG. (room based world that disappears when all players quit)
Madden NFL 2008 is a sports game (lulz)
Aion is an MMO (persistent world)
Phantasy Star Online is an ORPG. (room based world that disappears when all players quit.)

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And I sincerely dislike how you're implying that I did it on purpose to make a point, rather than gather the information I thought was relevant to the question I was asking. I'll apologise for the mistake (something we don't see often on GWG...), but I guess you won't do likewise for your nasty sentence.

uh?

I wasn't implying anything. I just said I "liked" how you missed it. Woo for assuming much? My statement had no bad words or anything at all man. You're just wanting to see an attack against you or something I guess.

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Very good point! Though technically I'm not 100% convinced since there may well be stuff available even if there're 0 players (I know the Xunlai storage is always up), but then we get into the definition of what "world" means. Technically if the GW world is seen as the collection of all towns, it's persistent, and districts are only instances of the world.

Furthermore, how do you know that the WoW world "exists persistently" if there are 0 players?

Part A: Xunlai storage technically isn't up. If there were no players playing, there would be no Xunlai agents generated by the server, and hence technically isn't up. The Xunlai Storage database is always on, yes, but technically there would be no way to access it. Semantics I guess. But there would be no world at all spawned.

Part B: Private servers, knowing the server infrastructure etc. The instant the server is loaded, the entire world (barring instances, but there is still a world) is generated, even if no one is there.

Fril Estelin · Jul 09, 2008, 10:42 AM // 10:42

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Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

If you're going to quote a definition off of Wikipedia, and then only take half the definition it gives, and then when I post the full definition you go "using another definition of the term which has not been made explicit so far", then you basically kill your entire argument because you just nulled what you used as a definition in the first place.

And if you start attacking posters because of things you think are true about them, while it's only a STUPID opinion you have on them, then YOU are the one killing the argument by making it personal. See my apologies above.

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The definition you gave me says you are wrong, you just failed to post the whole definition.

No, you failed to understand what I did and you're starting to piss me off.

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Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

I wasn't implying anything. I just said I "liked" how you missed it. Woo for assuming much? My statement had no bad words or anything at all man. You're just wanting to see an attack against you or something I guess.

Yes you were. Why would you "like" something like this? I don't want to continue this argument with someone like you, I'll simply delete what i posted above.

DarkNecrid · Jul 09, 2008, 10:46 AM // 10:46

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And if you start attacking posters because of things you think are true about them, while it's only a STUPID opinion you have on them, then YOU are the one killing the argument by making it personal. See my apologies above.

Show me the attack, please? I just told you you killed your argument at the time. (which is true, even if you apologized for making a mistake)

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No, you failed to understand what I did and you're starting to piss me off.

Ran to Wikipedia and hastily took a definition without fully reading the article or something. I do it too. No worries.

EDIT:
like seriously if you think I'm attacking you report me or PM a mod or something. I haven't attacked you at all man. Nice to think I hold some grudge or something against you (and that you think I have a stupid opinion on something? whatever.) when I don't even care about you at all. I haven't attacked you at all so whatever.

Fril Estelin · Jul 09, 2008, 10:48 AM // 10:48

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Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Ran to Wikipedia and hastily took a definition without fully reading the article or something. I do it too. No worries.

Another of your stupid and nasty sentences, just for the sake of showing off. I did read the whole article. Of course you didn't imply anything behind this sentence, you're just too good to be true.

around · Jul 09, 2008, 10:50 AM // 10:50

And this folks is why people don't like PvP.

They don't say things other people want to hear, they state the facts.

DarkNecrid · Jul 09, 2008, 11:00 AM // 11:00

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Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Another of your stupid and nasty sentences, just for the sake of showing off. I did read the whole article. Of course you didn't imply anything behind this sentence, you're just too good to be true.

If you have a problem with me, take it to PM, honestly. You're not only deleting posts now because of some odd reason (dealing with "someone like me" hohoho now that almost sounds like a personal attack (since I doubt you'd say that to someone you deem of any actual worth/as a good person), but you've had this weird ass grudge with me for some reason for the longest time now and it's starting to get really dull/unsettling. Maybe it isn't a grudge with me and you just take everything as an attack with everyone, but a) I never used offensive language at all. b) Even if I did (I didn't) none of it was directed towards you at all. c) all I did was point out a part of the definition you failed to add for some reason I can't quite figure out if you read the whole thing (Possibly a C+P error?).

If pointing out you made a mistake is a personal attack and "stupid & nasty" then I really want to know what you find downright despicable.

At no point did I ever call you dumb, say you had a stupid/bad opinion (though this wouldn't really be a personal attack per se), call you a bad person, use any cuss words, say something bad about you, call you a useless human being or a useless waste of space/air/etc, or anything.

I...talked like I always do using non-offensive language and pointed out you made a mistake?

Also to amend my last post I do not condone the usage of private servers and most of it is pretty much from basic server structure. When a WoW server comes online it generates a copy of everything because only 1 copy is needed, and if there was no copy of something it would be screwed because of how the game works. It's a persistent world for a reason 8).

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofebil

And this folks is why people don't like PvP.

They don't say things other people want to hear, they state the facts.

and/or don't want to invest time to learn a whole new game (and it is, a whole new game), and/or don't like not having heroes (well there is HB), and/or hate competition even though its in their entire life and/or can't "break in" into it.

but yeah. that's prolly a big one too.

RotteN · Jul 09, 2008, 11:26 AM // 11:26

keep it civil please, no need to get all personal.

It doesn't matter what kind of game GW1 "technically" is. What matters is how people view it, and how they play it. You can go on about CORPG till your head explodes, that won't make anyone pick up PvP.

Just keep it on topic. Either state what stopped you from playing PvP, or throw in possible "tweaks" that could prevent such situations in GW2.

around · Jul 09, 2008, 11:33 AM // 11:33

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and/or don't want to invest time to learn a whole new game (and it is, a whole new game), and/or don't like not having heroes (well there is HB), and/or hate competition even though its in their entire life and/or can't "break in" into it.

but yeah. that's prolly a big one too.

I was referring to the exchange between you and other bloke...

Anyway, I think that a lot of people take it too seriously as well. When they get told that their build/skill/haircut sucks, they think 'omg i'll never be good enough'/'omg pvp'ers hate me' and then swear never to PvP again.

DarkNecrid · Jul 09, 2008, 11:39 AM // 11:39

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Anyway, I think that a lot of people take it too seriously as well. When they get told that their build/skill/haircut sucks, they think 'omg i'll never be good enough'/'omg pvp'ers hate me' and then swear never to PvP again.

This is pretty true as well and one of the more potent reasons (one I hear a lot at least), but I don't really get it what do you do then if you don't do that just to get more PvPers? You can't very well lie and say they are good, because then they will never improve...? (And its not like you can "go easy on em" or something...it's just going YOU SCREWED UP.)

Perplexing problem I guess ;\

Silverblad3 · Jul 09, 2008, 11:47 AM // 11:47

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Originally Posted by Oukanna

I played PVE for 2 years, after a year and a half i decided, i should try PvP now. I started Abing since factions came out though, but as i see it many times hard core pvpers dont see AB as a pvp sport and call it noobs pvp.

I did RA, but didnt find it to my taste, so i tried TA and liked that better, as you can organise more. I found though i was being shouted at to do 1 build and 1 build only whih was an air build. So i decided to comply, and then started changing my build to what suited me and what i thought optomised my playing for killing the enemy (other players)
Whenever i formed TA teams, they either told me to revert back to this old build or i would get kicked or they leave.
This got annoying after a while so i moved on to HA.

When i got there, i had to go in randomway teams to learn the ropes (never got past 2 rounds in these,) so i didnt really learn much. However these where the only teams i could go in as everyone else wanted you to be a certain rank.
Over time i got better, had to use sway to get into better than randomway groups, i learnt more there.

Another problem is definatly the attitude of players, they blame things on others, they rage quit and insult and so on. It takes like an hour to form a group to last one round and it falls apart again because people are calling each other noobs.

I went back to Ta at times to have a go, and now i notice it is starting to get rank happy there -_-

To your idea about making high end PVE more like PVP, I am afraid that probably wont help as you still need the ranks to join good groups. However i guess it would slightly prepare PVE for PVP.

On a side note, i always used to ask questions when i partied with people, about what i am doing, It is a risk as people may call me a noob but i have come across a few nice people who explain to me what i need to do.
Doing this made me confident about what i was doing for the team, our team got better each round and we had fun and gained a few fame.

People just need to relax, if the Hard core PVPers take the time to explain a little more then the new people will understand and wont need to feel so threatened and play better. Just because they are PVE does not automatically make them crap. The people who dont take to people telling them what to do are silly and will never be good, its not to do with them playing PVE and no PVP, Imo anyhow.

Saying all this, it boils down to, people want to gain ranks fast, and to do this getting good teams is the key, so no one wants to help out the new players. They just want to get in their fast and get it done.

I do have an idea that might help, though a lot of people may not like it. I shall say it anyhow.

People segregate ranks, so why not create tiers. So certain ranks can only play with certain ranks.
So unranked go against unranked, then when they go up a rank they go to the next tier and so on.
This could eliminate rank segregation and make it much more fun for everyone.
Just a thought ^^

Awesome post and great idea at the end, PvP should be ranked segregated to allow for new folks to enter and challenge the more experienced. This would really help many folks I believe.

Silver

Syron · Jul 09, 2008, 11:49 AM // 11:49

I know this is old but i'd just remove all grind-titles from pvp.

There are always people who just want something to show off. These people flooded HA (tombs) because of the shiny emotes.

Back in the days when only tombs had a emote-rank-system, GvG and TA didn't have any rank-elitism, people actually played for fun.

Today we have "r5+ gladiator" groups and even in GvG there are guilds who play degenerate builds to farm champ points.

Rank elitism was (and still is) one of the main reasons for PvE-Players staying away from PvP.

no grind-titles (and emotes aswell) -> no rank-elitism -> more PvE-Players get to actually play PvP
(Rewards in gold or just skins for your weapons are ok imo)

Sadly it's not very likely to have no PvP-titles in GW2

DarkNecrid · Jul 09, 2008, 12:08 PM // 12:08

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Originally Posted by Syron

I know this is old but i'd just remove all grind-titles from pvp.

so then theres nothing for JUST PURE pvpers (rare as they may be, since this is like 5 people maybe) to unlock in the HoM?

We should get stuff too ^^

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There are always people who just want something to show off. These people flooded HA (tombs) because of the shiny emotes.

Also to get favor for their country.

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Back in the days when only tombs had a emote-rank-system, GvG and TA didn't have any rank-elitism, people actually played for fun.

Skill elitism. Rank elitism in GvG existed too (Rank 500 etc only)

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Today we have "r5+ gladiator" groups and even in GvG there are guilds who play degenerate builds to farm champ points.

Those people would play the same degenerate builds anyways.

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Rank elitism was (and still is) one of the main reasons for PvE-Players staying away from PvP.

So they chose Title Rank Elitism instead?

Syron · Jul 09, 2008, 12:40 PM // 12:40

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Those people would play the same degenerate builds anyways.

I don't think those people would even bother to gvg if there was no title, no gold, no nothing. But that wasn't really my point.

When you ask PvE-Player why they don't PvP you often get to hear something like: "PvP-Players are unfriendly", "I don't find a group (because i have no rank/emote)", and so on.

Starting in HA or TA without a guild- or friendslist-team is really frustrating and you'll have a bad impression of PvP right away.
This is because in my opinion playing in pugs is the worst approach you could choose getting started with PvP.
You need a guild or at least some friends to start with. This will help you and at the same time it's more fun.
Unfortunatelly PvE-Players expect to find a group the same way they do for missions and quests: Yelling "W/Mo level20 lfg" or spamming invites at random players/groups.........

You cannot force them to join a PvP-guild before they actually play.
The only thing you can do is to make their first impression of pvp less frustrating and this could be done (to a certain extent) by removing personal rankings/titles

Anet could of course keep an "I've played XXXX GvGs"-track (or something similar) for your HoM, that isn't displayable to others outside of your HoM.........

fireflyry · Jul 09, 2008, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syron

The only thing you can do is to make their first impression of pvp less frustrating and this could be done (to a certain extent) by removing personal rankings/titles

Yeah I agree although that would obviously dictate the need for a new area to prevent the uproar from those that garner titles.

I've also noticed and agree with the familiar thread in many posts concerning the lack of an introductory form of relaxed or transitory PvP that would make the shift or introduction so much easier, hopefully friendlier and less pressured for the newer PvPer.

Even the so called "low-end" or more casual areas, which were imo intended to fill this role, such as RA or AB are largely based on reward or a "win or else" mentality with the majority of players concerned with either consecutive wins or faction.

As such I question what effect a truly casual PvP area with absolutely NO tie in to titles or rewards of any kind would have had on this issue.

Some of the best fun I've had in PvP have been scrimmages where your just mucking around trying out builds and having fun with guildies and it's a pity this type of truly casual non-pressured PvP play is missing from the actual arenas.

It's the insta-pressure to win me thinks.

Edit:

Also wanted to add as I haven't really seen it mentioned yet that the entry level PvP and the people that play it tend to get slammed by the a large portion of the GW community with this "The only PvP is high-end.Period" mentality which doesn't seem to help matters.I get the feeling a lot of PvE players actually try PvP and like it but get shunned back into PvE by much of the community.

The amount of times I've seen threads like:

"New to PvP after trying RA/AB any suggestions or help for my class, on my build, with gear etc, etc"

...followed by....

"OMG AB/RA lol go back to PvE nOOb!!11!!"

...or similar attitude variations hence I would add the community also has some accountability in this regard.I certainly don't think it's 100% flawed game design.

RotteN · Jul 09, 2008, 03:59 PM // 15:59

i doubt anyone with a bit of brains would respond in such a way when someone is asking for actual help.

You do encounter similar replies when someone posts a build, people criticize it and point out flaws, the OP goes on to defend the build with "but it works is <insert low level PvP here>". Thing is a LOT of stuff "works" in low-end PvP, simply because it's low-end and thus not as demanding build-wise. That doesn't mean it's a good build.

A lot of GvG players from good guilds actually enjoy playing AB, and do so regularly. So saying "the only PvP is high-end" isn't realy the case.

Non the less, you need a thick skin if you start PvPing, i agree. Even the best players get called "LOL NOOBS" from time to time, just ignore it. But it's like that in every competitive online game, specially in FPS games were insults, kickvotes and serverbans run rampant. Strangely enough FPS is still the most popular "PvP" gamestyle ...

Zahr Dalsk · Jul 09, 2008, 04:13 PM // 16:13

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Originally Posted by RotteN

But it's like that in every competitive online game, specially in FPS games were insults, kickvotes and serverbans run rampant. Strangely enough FPS is still the most popular "PvP" gamestyle ...

And yet on an FPS you can freely and easily join a server. Nobody makes you find a group of 8 other players before joining. Nobody demands you have a certain title rank to enter their server. And if for some reason you're kicked, there are many other servers for the game that you can visit.

Titles are the primary culprit. There's just as much shit-talk in PvE what with PUGs, but you don't see people in post-searing Ascalon declaring that they're quitting because the prophecies scrubs keep yelling at them.

DutchSmurf · Jul 09, 2008, 04:34 PM // 16:34

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Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

And yet on an FPS you can freely and easily join a server. Nobody makes you find a group of 8 other players before joining. Nobody demands you have a certain title rank to enter their server. And if for some reason you're kicked, there are many other servers for the game that you can visit.

Titles are the primary culprit. There's just as much shit-talk in PvE what with PUGs, but you don't see people in post-searing Ascalon declaring that they're quitting because the prophecies scrubs keep yelling at them.

You actually made a good point about FPS being easy accessible, but surprised me by not following it. The main problem of GW's PvP is the huge barrier for access. That barrier isn't caused by titles, although they don't help. It is caused by the complete lack of a decent teamfinding tool and even more by the complete lack of a guild finding tool. In a game where guilds are that important for the main PvP format, it is kinda sad that there is 0 support for it.

Zahr Dalsk · Jul 09, 2008, 04:39 PM // 16:39

I felt it didn't need following since it should be painfully obvious to everyone that titles are the primary barrier here.

DarkNecrid · Jul 09, 2008, 04:43 PM // 16:43

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Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

I felt it didn't need following since it should be painfully obvious to everyone that titles are the primary barrier here.

lol no. There is way more barriers to PvP then just titles. Titles added to it, yes, but these barriers have existed long before titles were added, and held PvErs back since JUST before the start of Factions, really.

JR · Jul 09, 2008, 05:34 PM // 17:34

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Originally Posted by RotteN

I agree with JR on the whole picture. However, i'd like to add one thing : the teamsize. 8v8 is BIG in online games. I'd rather see this scaled down to 5v5, the "standard" format for team e-sports.

TA ladder/ATs would have been an amazing addition to the game, though sadly were passed over in favor of HvH.